ceiling fan install/no existing light fixture

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

The breaker for all this is a 15 amp and indicates bedroom receptacles only which makes sense as there are no ceiling light fixtures in these rooms. The outlets in two bedrooms seem to be affected only. Everything else in the house appears to normal.

There is only one outlet working in this room when the power is restored. However, only one of the receptacles is working (the bottom one) on this outlet. The good news is it indicates correct when I insert my little tester. It's interesting as this particular outlet that is halfway working is on an outside wall and the one I have been working on is on an inside wall separated by a doorway.

The method of connection I have used on the receptacle is to wrap the wire around the terminal screw. I have not used the push in connection method. There are no GFCI's on this circuit.

I don't know if I have a voltage tester or not, I have this gismo that has a red and black brobe designed to plug into the outlet and lights if there is power. I use this gismo to check to make sure there is no power. Let me know if I need something else... The guys at Lowes are getting to know me by name.

There are eight receptacles that are not working. Of these eight receptacles 4 are in the room I have been working on. The other 4 are in a separate bedroom and this other room has a wall switch that controls one of the outlets that is not working. Like I said above there is one particially working receptacle on this circuit. This I hope is encouraging.

In the meantime, I removed the single switch box and am getting ready to run the new 14/3 wire down from the fan/light location to the new double box.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

I am really impressed, you are very good and clear on your answers,

I Understand there is one outlet in the same room that you were working, that you say has 1/2 half of the plug working, I want you to pull it out, I want to know a couple of things...

1st look on both sides of the plug, is any of the joining tabs broken on either side of the plug ?

2nd how many wire cables are entering this box and how are they connected ?

I would also like you to confirm it is in the same room that you were working in.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Thank you for the compliment on clarity... I work for an electric utility and for a living write responses to customer inquires that come via the internet. That's why I need to do this job myself, as I need my money more than the electrican does.

For the outlet(the one that is partially working) is in the same room I have been working in. When I pulled the cover off the outlet, the interior of the box has a singe mark on it. The wires are all ok.. the insulation to the wires are intact and ok. The outlet itself looks fine, no burn marks whatsoever.

There are two sets of cables coming into this outlet box (with the standard three colors, white,black and ground). The white wires are attached individually to each one of the silver terminals. The black wires are attached individually to each one of the brass terminals. The ground wires are pigtailed togehter and attached to the ground screw on the outlet. The joining tab appears to be broken on both sides of the outlet.

Another question.. This joining tab..I left it intact on the outlet I replaced earlier today.. Is that correct?

The whole day has not been lost....I was successful at intalling the double light switch box and feeding the wire from the ceiling fan/light and to the switch.. don't worry I have not installed the actual light swithes. Maybe I stand a chance at being an electrician's journey man if I get laid off or something crazy!!! (Smile). Thank you for all your help!!!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

You stated...

"For the outlet(the one that is partially working) is in the same room I have been working in. When I pulled the cover off the outlet, the interior of the box has a singe mark on it. The wires are all ok.. the insulation to the wires are intact and ok. The outlet itself looks fine, no burn marks whatsoever."

"The joining tab appears to be broken on both sides of the outlet."
__________________________________________________ _________

This statement of what you found, I need more info.
Before this latest problem, when all was well , this plug was working perfectly , both halves and was in always on state , not switched, correct ?. You say that the box has a singe mark on it, a burn like mark on it. You also stated that the both joining tabs appear to be broken.

Even with split plugs or switched plugs , usually there is a common neutral and the brass color screw side is the only broken tab. I wonder if when the circuit was shorted that both these joining tabs melted and broke away. If that was the case with the wires not pigtailed and using the screws of the plug to make connection to the next wire, this would prevent power from continuing to the rest of the circuit.

Pull the plug out a big from the box look again at the between the 2 brass color screws and between the silver color screws to confirm no joining tab between them, compare it to another plug if need be. Tell me the status of this plug before the mishap, again I need you to tell me that both halves of this plug was before in an always on state and never controlled by any switch.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

orry I forgot to answer your one question.

"Another question.. This joining tab..I left it intact on the outlet I replaced earlier today.. Is that correct?"

Yes that is correct leave the tabs intact-no touch.
This is the plug that we converted to an always on state.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Well I checked two other outlets in different rooms and they all have the same appearance. They all appear to have no joining tabs. Is that possible? The new outlet I bought and installed today had very apparent brass joining tabs.

Before this mishap, this outlet was in an always on state and not associated with any switch to control it.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

I want you check a plug that is working both halfs, if there is one on the same circuit that works both halfs then check it for broken tabs. If there is not one on the same circuit that has both half's working. Then check an known always on plug on a different circuit, you may have to switch off that other circuit just for a few monents to do this, check for broken tabs on that plug.

Next check another plug that is on the circuit that is not working , and you know from your previous tests that it doesn't work with the power on. Look at the tabs.

The other 2 outlets that you checked that you say have broken tabs are they on the same problem circuit, and each of those outlets that you checks have 2 wire cables entering the box, each with a black/white/bare. Is there singe marks on those boxes.

I just want to get some consistency here between the plugs that work both sides and the ones that don't. You may be going back to buy several replacement plugs, but tell me what you find here first.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

There is no other plug working on this same circuit except the one with the singed box.

I have checked a total of 4 outlets. Two outlets on a working circuit and two other outlets on the non-working circuit.

The 2 outlets on the non-working circuit look fine, No burn marks or anything. They all have two sets of cables coming into their outlet boxes with three wires (black,white and ground). The wires are all connected individually to the appropriate terminal screws on the outlet. They all look like the other outlets and appear to have no tabs.

The other two outlets I checked are on a different working circuit and look the same as the other oulets..tabless. They too have two sets of cables entering their outlet boxes with black, white and ground. Like above the wires are all connected individually to the appropriate terminal screws on the outlet.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

This simply doesn't make sense, there must be connectivity from one plug to the next. If the wires are only going to screws and the only path to the next wire is at the screws of the plug then the 2 brass screw must be joined together , and the 2 white screw must be joined together. No one would wire isolated circuits to different halfs of every plug in the house.

I going to go on a hunch here, the plug you found that was known to be in an always on state but now only half of it works . It is on the problem circuit, in the same room that you are working in. I want that plug replaced , do NOT break off any tabs, and connect black to black and a short black wire going to the brass color tab of the plug .
White connect to white and a short white going to the silver color screw of plug , bares to grounding screw of plug and to the grounding screw of plug (possibly green)

I think what we are seeing is that the plugs appear to have no joining tabs, is that you have a different style plug and the 2 screw are joined internally or is made of a metal plate that joins the 2 screws, the new plugs connect the 2 halfs only by a joining tab.

Once you are finished replacing that plug, turn the breaker back on, now check both halfs of the plug that previosuly only worked on one half of it. Check both halfs, check the other plugs.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Oh and don't forget to put insulated wire nuts over your wire connections.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I will buy a new outlet (tomorrow) and I will connect exactly like you instructed. I will let you know the outcome then. Thanks for the help!

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I replaced that outlet and IT WORKED!!!! Everything all the outlets are working again. I even used the plug in tester and all the lights indicate that everything is "CORRECT". Thank you so much for your help.

I will post a reply again when this job is totally complete with a working ceiling fan/light. Hopefully I will not have any further trouble.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

That is good news, let me know how the project works out.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I successfully completed wiring the ceiling fan light with two wall switches... and much to my surprise it all works!
Many thanks to you for all your help. I would never have considered doing this myself without your very clear direction.

Thanks again!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

You are very welcome, and think of the money you saved by doing it yourself. Keep us in mine if you need any help in any of your future projects.